Should teachers use collective punishment?

Discussion

1. Hi,

   I would love to get some feedback on a recent situation in my daughter’s school. It goes further than your garden variety “collective punishment” and, while I think it is completely ludicrous, I’m not sure if this is a common belief and value held within the educational system.

   My daughter’s grade 5 class had a supply teacher last week. My daughter has high functioning autism, but is also on the gifted side intellectually. She functions well within a regular classroom without any special supports, however she does struggle with social situations, specifically understanding what is expected of her. She also has a lot of anxiety. She does not, however, have any behaviour problems at school and is very obedient – She gets anxious about following the rules. When she came home from school on the day of the supply teacher I could tell that something was very, very wrong. It took hours of me trying to work with her, but finally she talked about what happened in school that day. She said the supply teacher was yelling at the class regularly, took away recess and Ipads (which the school provides the students), and threatened to arrange for a “mean” supply teacher the following day. My daughter said there was a lot of talking during class and it sounds like the kids were revved up, but my daughter didn’t think anything extraordinary had happened. She also told me that she had listened and done everything she was supposed to do. So, at this point, my take on it was that the teacher had lost control of the class and had lost her cool and had punished the whole class for the behaviour of a few. And while I’m not a fan of collective punishments, I admit that I’ve used them with my kids when we’re all having an off day (and always regret them afterwards). I could have taken that in stride.

   But then my daughter informed me that everyone in the class had to write an apology letter to the supply teacher. Those who had misbehaved had to write an apology letter for acting that way. Those who hadn’t (including my daughter) had to write an apology letter for not intervening when their class mates had misbehaved. I was completely incredulous. I told my daughter that she was not going to write a letter accepting ownership of others’ behaviour and explained that we have no control over what other people do, we only have control over ourselves.

   I phoned the principal the next day to get some clarity on this issue. I thought that my daughter must have misunderstood. In fact, the principal confirmed this was the request and that it had been her direction after the supply teacher had told her the class was misbehaving.
   I pointed out that:
   1) My daughter has no control over what anyone else does
   2) That I was very uncomfortable with the narrative of the helpless teacher who needs to be protected from her class by the other students, and assumes no responsibility for what happens in the classroom but is going to download that responsibility to my 10-year-old, and
   3) That there doesn’t appear to be any self-reflection on the part of the teacher about how things could have gone differently, when it sounds like her behaviour was less than ideal.

   The principal (who is very new) just didn’t seem to get any of this. The principal kept saying this was about citizenship (I countered by saying I am a “good citizen” but when I’m driving, obeying the speed limit, I don’t assume responsibility for other drivers who are speeding). Frankly, I am extremely troubled by this incident.

   Thoughts? Has this principal gone rogue or is this actually a “thing”?

   1. I don’t think this is a “thing”, no. I (and many other teachers) try to convey to students that we are part of a community and need to help one another make good choices and speak up when we see others making bad choices. That’s become increasingly true as so many students are bullied and their classmates witness it but say/do nothing–we want kids to understand that standing idly by while someone is being harmed is not okay.

      However, I think what you’re describing is taking a good moral lesson way too far. I agree that students are not responsible for protecting a teacher from other students, particularly when we’re talking about general childish misbehavior and not physical endangerment. The teacher is responsible for maintaining order in the classroom.

      I’ve experienced (and expressed) my frustration with students who laugh at and encourage poor behavior in their peers. However, I can’t hold those students responsible for not peer pressuring their classmates into doing the right thing, particularly at the elementary level. Forcing students who did not misbehave to write an apology letter is taking things a bit far, especially considering that your daughter has autism and presumably struggles with social interactions to some degree. She should not have been expected to intervene on the supply teacher’s behalf, in my opinion, nor should she have to write an apology letter.

      1. This is a picture of what i have been going through with my 5 year old. I am angry, frustrated with my misjudment about the school. I have noticed that this is the school approach, not the teachers. I have a feeling that in England many archaich and questionable educational flaws are the rule, not the exception. I have neither patience or language skills to tiptoe around this. How can 5 year olds be taken away from playing because they dont know how to play? I was told i must Teach my son to be stronger. How do I do that? How i help him to not be broken by this, or to restore a good relationship with his teatcher? He is upset, anxious and confused about the lesson his is being thought. If he is happy and sing while washing his hands he is told off, he plays with his water bottle during a boring pointless lesson he is told off, his friend falls on the playground due to a colision he is punished collectivally and individually, as he lost his chance to be the one playing a game he never gets to play because the other Kids always get their way. I need to cool off. Please, help me be smart about this. I always put my foot on the mouth.

2. In response to the apology letter to the supply teacher (I’m guessing that’s a substitute/ guest teacher?). I have to say, while I oppose collective punishment, I had an experience the other day that was actually similar to this and here’s my explanation for why I handled it the way I did-

   My kids were at their regular music class (not a guest teacher- just the regular music teacher). When I picked up, I could tell things were out of control (she was giving them a talking to). She told me that most of the class had been pretty out of control and when we got back to class and discussed it further, it appeared from what the kids told me that yes, MOST of the class had been participating in the behavior. Examples were: kicking other students, throwing crayons around the room and at each other, jumping up and down on the risers, running around the room, banging on the drums, etc.

   Fifth graders, mind you. Old enough to know better. Going into middle school next year. Old enough to take some ownership of class behavior and to know how their actions impact the whole.

   Now, I would say that the fault for the situation escalating resides with that teacher. However, we had been having many conversations in class about bullying and bystanders and how we can make situations better or worse by what we choose to do. So in that context, I asked my kids to think about how they could have handled things differently (if at all). Then we wrote letters to the music teacher….BUT I asked the kids to write the letter based on their own behavior. Kids who acknowledged participating in inappropriate behavior were to write an actual apology, taking responsibility for the behavior and indicating what they would do to make sure it didn’t happen again (this turned out to be 13 out of 23 kids).

   Those who felt they were in a position to help another child adjust his or her behavior (example- they laughed at another child’s misbehavior and encouraged it) could write about what they might do differently that might help change the other person’s behavior (there were 4 students who were quite clear that they could have helped in this way and that their behavior did indeed make it worse).

   Those who felt that they did exactly the right thing could just confirm that for me- no apology necessary but if they wanted to share any thoughts with the music teacher they could (Four just affirmed their choices but 2 of them said they were sorry that other kids had caused trouble…not really an apology, more like, “I feel bad that some kids made it hard for us to get our projects done today”). Six kids total.

   Now, if only a few kids had been off-task I would not have done this. But given the actual situation, and given the multiple conversations we’d had about this topic, it did feel like something that might help connect our conversations with an actual event.

   I will say that, though, that if this happens again, I’m staying out of it. This teacher needs to figure out classroom management and if she can’t handle a group of kids, then she needs to get some support from admin and learn quickly. It’s not my job to make my kids behave when they’re not with me and it’s not their job to make each other behave. It’s her job to figure out how to create a positive learning environment with enough procedures and structure in place that the kids WANT to behave because it helps them learn and have fun.

   1. Thanks for chiming in. I think this situation is different because YOU, the classroom teacher, gave the assignment, and you were not the one whom students were writing to. You know your kids and what they’re capable of. To me, that’s very different from a supply/substitute teacher creating an assignment like this. You were also not asking for an apology letter to yourself, but to a colleague. And most importantly, you allowed the students who believed they were innocent to simply state that with no apology necessary. Everything you said (especially your conclusion in the last paragraph) makes sense to me.

3. Robin,
   Thank you for sharing that.
   I see your exercise more as self-reflection for the kids.
   I actually think teaching kids how to reflect on their performance/behaviour and use that reflection to set personal goals is a really valuable skill and I can get behind that.
   And thank you Angela for your thoughtful commentary.

4. It’s interesting to me to read this article and all of the comments and see how this issue persists, despite better reasoning, in classrooms of all grades. I am a student – a senior in high school, in fact, and I’m very similar to Morgan and others mentioned above – and it surprises me that my classmates have caused whole group punishment to be incurred not once, but twice this term (the second being today) due to their inability to, as my teacher yells, “shut up!” It may be the so-called “senioritis,” a lack of caring about grades, or just a general lack of caring, for that matter, but these seniors, who are expected to and really should know better, continue to seem unfazed by this. However, while the majority of my classmates are to blame, I take issue to how my teacher is doing the punishment. On the last occasion, we had just begun a chapter, when, annoyed by people talking over him, he suddenly suspended teaching altogether and announced we would have a test on the entire chapter the next day. Needless to say, most people failed; it doesn’t seem like many cared, for whatever reason. I personally care about my grades and went out of my way to check out a textbook (which are not issued for this course) and studied extensively, resulting in a 100, but unfortunately a lot of undue stress, along the way. Today, luckily, the lesson was the last of the chapter (meaning we were already scheduled to have a test tomorrow) and was on handouts, and we simply had to read them ourselves after his outburst. Of course, most students didn’t, and even resumed talking after the short period of shocked silence that followed. I understand my teacher is stressed and may be having a bad day or dealing with whatever other issues which lead to such punishment in the classroom. It’s clear that he doesn’t mind giving the punishment, however, going so far as to say we can report him, and he won’t care – he’s been in the business long enough already, and prior to teaching was in the military (which could be a contributor to the “military-style” punishment). I don’t aim to get the teacher in trouble; I actually feel sort of bad for him, on behalf of my classmates. (We’re graduating in May, and they frankly do not demonstrate the qualities seniors should!) In fact, I don’t aim to take action at all… the semester is almost over, and hopefully this won’t occur again; in any case, I don’t want to bring it up, for multiple reasons. To be completely honest, I’m using this as a forum to vent… but any feedback is welcome. Thank you for reading my story. I hope your day has been better than mine! ☺

   1. Thank you so much for sharing what collective punishment is like from a student’s perspective. Reading your words, it becomes very clear why punishing the whole group doesn’t work: it turns the kids who made good choices against their teacher, and makes them feel like it’s impossible to succeed. Why bother trying if another kid has the power to mess up your grades? Might as well just ignore and interrupt the teacher the next the day, because now your grade is lower and if feels impossible to get back on track, and you know your classmates will probably just make the teacher mad again and another group punishment will occur.

      Meanwhile the teacher sees that the punishment was ineffective and actually caused MORE attitude problems, which angers and frustrates him (“Why don’t these kids care? Why are they so disrespectful?”) and so repeats the punishment, making it even more extreme in hopes of getting the reaction he wants this time…

      What a vicious cycle. No one wins.

      I’m glad that you feel some empathy for your teacher. I do, too. If he knew of a better way to handle this problem, he’d act on it! I wonder if it would be helpful if you let him know–in a kind, respectful way–how the group punishment affected you. Let him know that you do care about about your work, and you do respect him as your teacher, and you don’t want your grades to suffer because of other students’ choices.

      Keep me updated. 🙂

      1. Well, as with the last time this happened, he’s luckily changed his mind and gone back to teaching (though not after keeping up the act and threatening to continue the tests-every-other-day demeanor). Although I’m inclined to believe that his initial action is spurred by factors outside of class, I’m never quite sure if he’s angry at us the day after where we take the test, or is just carrying out his threat so that we don’t believe he’s one who gives empty threats. In any case, I was able to make a 100 again, and when today he resumed teaching, one of my classmates – who also must be concerned about their grades! – actually addressed the class and said that we’re going to all keep quiet and listen for once. More or less, that worked! Overall, I agree that this style of punishment causes more harm than it does benefits, but the results ultimately reflect what is expected – the lower grades due to lack of instruction inspire increased attention and thus things resume as they should be – just at more cost to students and perhaps the teacher as well.

         Thank you for your response and helping me through this for the second time. Hopefully, it will not occur a third. I hope you have a wonderful holiday season! ☺

         1. Glad things worked out. Thanks again for sharing your thoughtful reflections with teachers.

5. Hi Angela-
   Great article thank you! The comments have been filled with insightful perspectives and ideas for a more positive approach to managing the classroom dynamic.
   I am a mother of two (11 and 13), a board member of my daughter’s school as well as my job is to manage Human Resources for a global company. I also run our Corporate Training function. My academic background is in Organizational Dynamics, Communications and Intercultural Relations.
   I am now working with my daughter’s teacher to address the issue of group punishment. She is the “Morgan” in the story- with the difference of having been taught from an early age to advocate and communicate with adults from a place of empowerment. Her teacher sent me a text today stating he had received a letter from her stating her concerns about the group punishment given to them the previous day for a few who were acting out.
   This is now my 5th teacher in four years that I have seen this as a default approach to addressing the issues created by a few children. Both my son and my daughter have lived through intense trauma (they lost their father to cancer 3 years ago) have traveled around the world and recognize that they are quite privileged- and both work very diligently to do well in all areas of their lives. They know better than most that life is not automatically “fair”. They also recognize that we all need to do our best, and do what we can to make it a better place for everyone.
   I realize that each time we have had to deal with this, it is either a teacher early in their career (with severely inadequate training in this area) -or- a burned out teacher. I have a tremendous amount of empathy for them as I deal with adults who act like children day in and day out.
   I would highly encourage parents, teachers and students, when “group punishments” are being employed to take some time to re-examine the situation (as many have stated above in their journey that they have done)- and specifically look at intention, purpose and accountability. The price of a disengaged learner, I would propose, is far greater than the price we pay for a less-adequately “punished” disruptive person. We have a much better understanding in the 21st century as to what is motivating disruptive behavior. The rub is in the details and the context- not all situations are equal (although teachers are often trained to judge all disruptions equally). My favorite way of looking at disruptions is to ask myself- what is this child acting on? (versus how is this child acting out?)
   Most of what I have found helpful for teachers comes from leadership wisdom. I teach leadership (going on 25 years)- and what we know to be true, regardless of the age of the followers, is that compelling leadership is a function of who we are and not any technique. So the real question is: who are you being in the classroom? What are you holding yourself accountable to and for? How often do we even consider, as a teacher, parent or a boss, of setting the same processes of accountability in the reverse? Can your students call you out on your misdeeds?
   Some lessons from the world of leadership:
   Accountability breeds accountability. Intentional leadership breeds intentional “followership”. Being fully present and connected to the human beings in front of you will allow you to generate that in return.

   I have been working with these teachers (our school is in the inner city and has a 28% special ed. population) very successfully over the last 4 years. I have gone in and taught the kids in my son’s class my self. His teacher, who came to us with only 1 year of experience, ran one of the most engaging learning environments I’ve ever seen (60 % of which are on some sort of behavioral IEPs or come from extremely impoverished home environments.) The children respected her deeply and when she left, they were devastated. She had a rough start for sure- but she recovered quickly, by employing two way accountability and listening. She made sure every child knew that she cared for them first and foremost- that they were there together for their success. She was real with them- owned her mistakes, showed her true emotions (with out yelling; using I statements), spoke to them with respect. She refused to model being a victim- but instead chose to model responsibility for her life. It works. Every time.
   Thank you again for this discussion- very insightful!

   1. Thanks for taking the time to share from a parent’s perspective and help refocus on the big picture. So much to consider here.